Maybe people will be upset at me for posting this, but if we are having an open conversation I feel the need to post as someone who is mostly neutral on the topic.

When it comes to ai I am in the middle. I am an artist myself, and I do not like when I go into a store and see ai art printed everywhere on mugs and other slop. I don't like seeing books being sold that are obviously ai. I don't like that older people are getting scammed by it. But at the end of the day, you know who sucks for doing that? The scammers. The companies trying to sell ai art.

But I do think it has it's uses. For example, I used it to make an image when I was making a letter to my classroom from their elf on the shelf. They wanted to know how she was doing and I generated a picture of her in Santa's workshop. Was that something I would have paid for or spent a ton of time making on my own? No. Did the image brighten the children's day? Yes, it did. Sometimes I use it when I am stuck on something and need an idea. I also used it to make my profile picture because I cannot find a face claim for Winnie that looks older than her former face claim, but also just as whimsical.

When I first found out about the possibility of ai backgrounds my first thought was 'oh god, people are going to be upset, lets not do this.' But after finding out how many images we would need, and seeing how the site looks void of images... Man, I don't like the void. It hurts my eyes.

I liked the idea of using ai that has been trained on public domain pictures and art. That way we can create something new when there is not a good option for the background. Maybe we could try to offset any carbon emissions by donating to charities?

But I also liked Lourine's art. I think the owls are cute. I also like the idea of using textured backgrounds.

I understand the concern about what happens if an artist no longer wants us to use their art, them being banned, etc. I have been a staff member for five years, I have seen how things can backfire. Then we would be back to square one, having the same discussion.

We seem to be stuck. So I am putting my faith in Zach.

Because at the end of the day this is his site, his baby. I cannot imagine the heartbreak of having almost all the visual elements of your code suddenly taken away. If my projects suddenly had an integral part of it taken I would want to quit right then and there. The fact that he is trying to find a solution speaks volumes to me.

First of all, good news everyone, I'm still technically alive.

This is a truly nightmarish scenario for the site and there are no easy solutions. I will keep my opinion brief as there has been more than enough said already. I am against AI in basically everything, but it can still have its merits if it's used ethically. I know from talking to Winnie that she has an idea of using an AI engine that would only source from public domain and have artists who have authorized the use of their work. I think this is the ideal solution. We need a quick(ish) and cost effective solution. The site looks incomplete without background images. It would be very time consuming (not to mention expensive) to commission an artist. This is the best and most ethical solution.

I just wanna say that it's really good the community can speak, and people obviously feel a lot of really strong things about this topic. Even though I am not anti-AI (I don't love it, but to me it has its uses) and would be ok with using those images, I understand that a lot of people are not - and a lot of valid things have been said about the effects that AI can have and the problems it can cause, and how a lot of the community would be upset.

Still, all Zach did ask was to at least get to show us what he's been working on and what he created before we decide. If Zach is really almost ready to show us, then probably most of the images are already made anyway, and if that's the case I don't think it would do additional harm to at least see them. And it seems like he's been working very hard on this from what he said in his messages, where he said he's been working for months.

Even if you disagree with the choice, we gotta remember how much Zach does for the site, and how many hours he put in to make this site as beautiful as it is. Ive been on a lot of HP sites and I've never been on one that looked and felt this good, and this is all done by ONE person who doesn't have to do any of it, with his own time, all so we can have this site to play on (Thank you Zach).

I don't mean to quiet everybody cause it's good that the community is open for debate and discussion, and Zach even said that we could keep talking about it, but I just hope we can at least remember that it must be hard to see everybody so fired up when you've been working so hard to create something for everyone (which Im sure goes way beyond just a few AI images), so I just hope we can be careful with our words, and maybe open to at least seeing what Zach has created.

I will keep my thoughts brief, as there has been a lot contributed here already. I don't like generative AI. I have used it for image generation of an avatar when first making Kaitlyn, but I have since switched from that. I don't like the impact generative AI has had (and will continue to have as it permeates further and further in our lives). As someone who needs to work with AI for their job, it saddens me to see it used so much.

Now, with that being said, we will need a lot of images for the background on the different forums. Commissioning art will likely be very expensive (I would agree with a contest to have artists make art for the site, but I also know that this has its flaws, and will still take a lot of time), and could suffer from people dropping out of a long-term project. I personally don't mind the plain background (and I do think textured backgrounds would be good, too). But, if we need to use AI art for the backgrounds, I wouldn't mind AI being used. I think using one of the non-generative AI platforms (or the ones that have less of a carbon footprint) would be ideal.

I would like to say thank you Zach for the countless hours you've spent first developing H.io, and the hours you're spending to improve the site. I think you should be given the time and the opportunity to craft the site as you see fit.

I think what Jake has written was nicely put. I understand emotions are high right now and everyone wants their opinion heard but there are some messages that come across as very harsh. Zach and Lear have posted a break down of numbers and stats but it very much feels like those posts are being ignored because the same suggestions are coming up again and again when they have already explained why they unfortunately will not work.

Zach has spent over two decades on this site and its French sister site PFR (which is facing the same image problem as we are, but the posts on PFR have been far more respectful). He has always been open and honest with us despite the site being his work. Yes we have all contributed but at the end of the day it’s his baby.

It’s important to stop and remember we are all humans with feelings.

Winnie
Zach has spent over two decades on this site and its French sister site PFR (which is facing the same image problem as we are, but the posts on PFR have been far more respectful). He has always been open and honest with us despite the site being his work. Yes we have all contributed but at the end of the day it’s his baby.

It’s important to stop and remember we are all humans with feelings.

I second this.

I may be part of the ones combative (in support), but I do know that it's causing a rift between one another the more we have to fight about this. It is Zach's baby, and I think we should be respectful about that no matter how much we swear by the bible that we hate ai.

Winnie Athanatos wrote: Today, 01:50 I think what Jake has written was nicely put. I understand emotions are high right now and everyone wants their opinion heard but there are some messages that come across as very harsh. Zach and Lear have posted a break down of numbers and stats but it very much feels like those posts are being ignored because the same suggestions are coming up again and again when they have already explained why they unfortunately will not work.

Zach has spent over two decades on this site and its French sister site PFR (which is facing the same image problem as we are, but the posts on PFR have been far more respectful). He has always been open and honest with us despite the site being his work. Yes we have all contributed but at the end of the day it’s his baby.

It’s important to stop and remember we are all humans with feelings.

I just wanted to say, as someone who did post here on the anti-ai side of the debate and talked to others, as well as reading every single post on this thread, I would not classify what people on the opposing side were saying as disrespectful. Sometimes tones can sound harsh, I know that in my writing sometimes it can come off that way, but it is just because a lot of people are very serious about the topic, as this is a serious discussion, and some people that I talked to felt like their voices weren’t heard. They are simply stating opinions as you are stating yours, and did not by any means want it to come off as rude. I think it is a bit unfair to say that they were doing so.

Emma van Elst wrote: Today, 02:18

I just wanted to say, as someone who did post here on the anti-ai side of the debate and talked to others, as well as reading every single post on this thread, I would not classify what people on the opposing side were saying as disrespectful. Sometimes tones can sound harsh, I know that in my writing sometimes it can come off that way, but it is just because a lot of people are very serious about the topic, as this is a serious discussion, and some people that I talked to felt like their voices weren’t heard. They are simply stating opinions as you are stating yours, and did not by any means want it to come off as rude. I think it is a bit unfair to say that they were doing so.

Winnie never said any one side was coming off as harsh, she simply said that some posts were harsh. And even acknowledged the fact that some people might be feeling like they are being ignored.

but there are some messages that come across as very harsh. Zach and Lear have posted a break down of numbers and stats but it very much feels like those posts are being ignored because the same suggestions are coming up again and again when they have already explained why they unfortunately will not work.

The goal of her message was to remind every one that:

It’s important to stop and remember we are all humans with feelings.

I don't think that's unfair, especially considering Zach had to step away from the thread.

Hello ! (^^)

I understand in the everchanging world that stuff and time does change ! As well as there being legitimate reasons for uses of AI, but this I don't really agree with it.

There is one thing to use for buisness, like an assist especially if required for your job. But for a site that prides itself on human made creativity that doesn't feel right, as well as the cost we have on nature.

Even if it isn't alot like you're saying, it's still contributing the same way as when you throw away a bottle on the ground, it might seem small but it quickly adds up.

I just think it's an odd double standard, to be allowed to use generated images but generated ai writing is banned, (playing devil's advocate here) as artists no matter what form we need to stay and stick together !

I'm no too bothered really with people who use generated pfps, and in no way is that meant as an attack to them.

I'm saying as site moderators who understand the cost it has, it should be taken into more consideration ! There's lots of amazing artists on site who were willing to do it, meaning the cost wouldn't be that much, as well as people who are willing to give their own money.

You said there was a probl with copyright, but the problem with AI is that it's still more undefined and who's to say that in a couple years more laws concerning it won't come out ? Not to mention it does train itself off art, so really it's still considered a theft and not a proper solution.

It might take longer to do the artist, but imagine the outcomes ! It would feel much more alive, and a site that feels alot more connected knowing the members helped and work hard to make something beautiful ! Not to mention because the amount there's ALOT to choose from, so really the idea of not liking it wouldn't be a problem.

Also I think that's a pretty cool bragging right to be honest ! Like "My site's background was made by all the amazing people on my site 😁 !" You wouldn't even need to worry about later since they're literally giving you the rights by offering it ?

I just think we need to be more open minded ! I understand that you're saying that it's more time efficient, but it's the cons outwighing the pros overall. I know you said it's been months work, but what's a couple more weeks ! It doesn't have to be a on you guys, we want to help ALOT ! We want to contribute to the sight we love so much ! Team work makes the dream work !! (^w^)

@Emma van Elst

Hi! To clarify, I am not discouraging people from posting their opinions or saying one side is harsh! I am stating I believe some came across as unnecessarily harsh but I also understand emotions are high.

I am also a member of the French site and they are having the same discussion. The discussion, again in my opinion, seemed way less heated than it has been on hio. Perhaps it is because I have the French site’s conversation as a comparison and I have seen what this discussion has done behind the scenes that I find some posts to be harsh.

Your opinion may be they did not come across as harsh, mine opinion is that some did come across as harsh. Both are valid! We can agree to disagree. I don’t believe it’s unfair of me to say.