AI and background images

To start, I will say I'm worried about the usage of AI on this site. The pros and cons are immense and can easily be defended from both sides. Im trying to take a more neutral approach though i might have failed .

For the AI side:
- I think it would be near impossible to ensure artists cannot remove work from the site if it is volunteer based. Contracts and stuff may have to be signed, and I know people are more than willing now, but just legally I don't know.
- It saves time, energy, and recources.
- everything else mentioned above.
- to @Reyna Evergreen's point, AI is a tool. Excel was said to take over accounting jobs, etc. However, lets move into cons

Cons:
- while it is a tool, it is a tool that steals from other people. Excel doesn't use the code of Google Sheets, for example (At least I don't think so). AI uses artwork that takes hours to make.
- It could lead to more. I already, as a graphic designer who sells on this site (IC) myself, hate working with AI profile photos. I will do it, but ethically it makes me feel icky. Unless there is a complete irrevocable guarantee this will not lead to other parts of the site (Writing, core images for spells, etc) I think that it is not worth the risk of "Well it's okay this time, lets do it again." Zach, I know you addressed the writing portion, so less worried about that.
- Finally our site, like people said earlier, consists of artists. Period, no question. authors, artists , etc. Just thinking realistically, you will lose fanbase. AI profile photos are one thing, as there are only so many face claims and people out there who fit the required ages, look of your pc, and so on. Backrounds can be avoided, and from a mostly neutral source, I fear a lot of people I have met will leave. It will disrupt the community and the social network.

Now, that's a lot of rambling, but my main opinion is: is the time save and resources worth the loss of support? I am neutral, I think if there is a way around it we should do it, but either way I personally will stay. That will not be the case for everyone. My all time favorite thing about h.io and why I keep coming back to it is the sense of community, and I really don't want to have to risk that.

I also may be overexaggerating :>

Either way, thank you Zach for all the time and energy you put into this. there is no perfect answer sadly.

PS: this was written like four hours ago so it may not be up to date

What inevitably happens in these conversations is a transition from talking about a specific topic to a more generalized debate about a concept. So I am going to attempt to add my piece solely within the situation of the site.

I absolutely love the images. I tried a lot of other RP sites, both HP and not, and I landed on this one because it was easy to navigate, straightforward, and immersive. I love the wreaths at Christmas, the snow in winter.

I don't particularly mind AI, but nobody's mind is going to be changed from any argument I make, as much as I have thought about it. This isn't a thread about debating Ai, though, but about solutions. I would prefer AI images. I have been told there are a few AI generators out there that only use images that artists gave permission for? But then again, I am sure that I am going to get arguments about how it isn't actually permission based and I am not an artist so I will not pretend to have authority.

But more importantly, if we go with none I would like to plead for some. 400 is, I am told, unreasonable. But even just a few? Entrance Hall, main hall, forest, each "house" area (even the same through them all), Platform 9 3/4. The classrooms could all be the same, the informational ones can all be the same, the rest can be whatever. We have volunteers. Yes, yes, contracts and leaving and copyright, I dont know. That can all be figured i should hope. But then again, I have been told I am naively optimistic about people so...

Alternatively, we also can use color, while staying neutral. Dark blue for boathouse, green for grounds, grey for London (matching the sky). Just to have some variety, some level of immersion.

Honestly, I really just am excited for the new navigation and want to find a way to make it doable.

Making another post now that we've gotten to see the no background options. I try to avoid using the word hate, but honestly, I hate it. I feel like I'm in some sort of void. On other sites I don't mind that they don't have a background because there is stuff there, or because its a loading screen and its suppose to be blank. But there's just enough blank and just enough stuff to make it feel like the abyss is closing in. And yes I'm aware of how silly that sounds, but I honest to goodness find it scary [this is coming from somebody who gets nightmares from minecraft zombie noise though so- don't put much weight on it]. I'm not sure how much changing the color would help, as anything other than brown would probably give the same vibe and brown would muddle the already cool leather site aesthetics.

I personally don't think its hypocritical to use AI art on a human writing site. Plenty of people have used and are using AI images for their character profile pictures, encies, and banners. If anything it would be hypocritical to ban AI for the backgrounds when so many people already use it for other things on the site. The site is dedicated to human writing about students in magic schools, nothing else. To allow AI writing into a site dedicated to human writing defeats the purpose. As the site is dedicated to writing, not visual art, it is not at all hypocritical to allow for AI art, as using AI art doesn't defeat the purpose, nor 'taint' the writing itself.

The issue with using volunteers isn't about diversity or ignoring people's creative aspirations, its logistics and copyrights. With so many background pictures by so many artists, in a real time rp site, crap is bound to happen. Between every day drama and 'what do we do with the image if the user leaves the site, or worse is banned?' it will probably end up being a huge mess for the admins, and I think more mess for the admins should be avoided if at all possible

I think the toggle feature is the perfect compromise! Those that don't want to see AI art don't have to, but those that want the background images can! Why not let those that want background images bad enough have background images?

I believe that someone said it before in this thread, that a large majority of site users don't like AI. Noting this thread Where almost everyone that choose to share their thoughts said how they hated AI use.
I am firmly against the use of generative AI in the entirety, It steals from artists, takes away creativity, harms the environment, and just plainly looks bad. I don't even like how AI is used for profile pictures or some banners on site, but there's not much to do about that.
Many users here have offered up options that don't include AI, like the blank colored backgrounds and the photography, and those both seem like good options that don't involve generative AI. So if I can be honest, I don't fully understand the instance on using something harmful that AI has been proven to be.

Even if AI is used as a background with a toggle option it will not change that AI is still on the site. That's just something I cant get behind at all. The few images that may be generated may stick for years sure, so one could argue that "It's just 10 (for example) and it's not being used for fun" But that's still 10 images generated by AI. With far to many other people still using it for 'fun' those 10 images add up over time with how much other people use it. It also still has the environmental impact, and again, AI steals from actual artists and human creativity. Even if it's just the 10 images once and never again that impact is still there. And I 100% hate the idea of a site built off creativity supporting that and using it.

Circling back to the alternatives, I fully think either the photography, or blank background is the best fit. I lean to the no background personally, the photo's may be a little to 'what can we/what cant we use'. So if people don't like the 'dark void'. I can understand, thoughj it doesn't bother me much. Perhaps it could be a different color with some type of texture overlayed. Like wood, brick, stone etc., depending on the forum.

In the same vein that this is a site primarily dedicated to writing and expressions of creativity, I think that the focus should remain on the writing and not on using AI generation to combat the "void." I haven't been here long, so I don't want to speak too far out of turn, but I think that the draw to the site is the community and the organization and the writers, not just the visuals. The official illustrations were lovely (even though we can't keep them RIP), but not the heart of roleplaying. It's not really a necessity.

The hypocrisy lies in the fact that art is a creative expression that requires experience and a human touch. It doesn't matter how pretty the visual that the AI cooks up, when you know that it was built off stolen work with not a single ounce of effort. Writing is the same. It requires thought and deliberate creative choices, and it doesn't matter how flowery the AI writing is when you find out that the "person" behind it just copied and pasted and went on their way. Even though the site is dedicated to writing, the concept that human writing trumps human art is confusing. Both should be equally important in creative spaces like this.

Like other users have suggested, it doesn't need to be only two options: black void versus AI generated images. There are other things that could possibly be tried; I personally liked the suggestion of colors and textures to fit the different areas of the site (ex. the brown leather here and the bricks for Diagon Alley), or like mentioned before, photography. Understandably, a ton of users love their AI gen stuff, and it would likely be impossible to moderate all that from the userbase. But I don't think the site itself needs to be endorsing its usage.

First of all, thank you so much for what you have done for us and how you tell us about this change transparently, Zach.

Yet for me, I am strongly opposed to generative AI use on site. As a creative writing community, we ban AI for writing. It would be against our values if we used AI-made backgrounds. I know it’s impossible to commission all 400 background pictures because of how much time and money that would take. I don’t really like the plain black background right now, but other solutions people have raised are actually very good in my opinion. Photos that fit the theme can be edited to fit the aesthetics better. Plain backgrounds can add different colors and textures to emphasize they are different places. I think it will look good to have simple textures like grass for the ground, a stonewall for the inside of the castle, etc. (extend the idea from the previous suggestion).

All in all, this is just my opinion.

In full respect to everyone. I understand this situation is a tricky one.

I am always opposed to the use of generative AI no matter the circumstance. I would rather have no background images at all rather than have AI generated ones.

Appreciate you as always Zach!

Agree with this! We can use a filter to match all the images that we could use. Since they said that we can "Modify or adapt Content into new works".



Hello Sir Zachary, Thank you for all your hard work! I have some idea to share!

1. I also strongly opposed to generative AI.
2. To remove the backgrounds — actually this is the most plausible option. Even if the site looks a bit bare or a bit minimalist it's alright. I believe that the people who uses the site makes all the experiences here fun and not the looks of it. AND it's a writing-based site, I'm totally alright with no background at all.
3. How about you let someone at the site to draw for us? You can create a new site job, like an Illustration team! They'll create backgrounds or items for us. You can compensate them by giving galleons or items (personalized pet) that is solely for them. I think that our members here are all creative and there might be someone who wants to share their talent for hio.

Let's not debate about ai anymore, let's find an options. Lol if it's possible, I can try to draw but given that my irl situation isn't good right now, i think others can give it a try.

I just wanted to hop by and state my mind, tl:dr I agree with most of the anti-AI people.

I personally was disappointed? saddened? to realize the background images were AI, and while I am not sure how I feel about "the void" I prefer it to the bland copy of art it replaced. I would take a bland background over AI any day.

That being said, I really like a lot of solutions that were offered. Photography is a nice idea, I think with a bit of editing (photos that are too bright would ruin the vibe / draw the attention away from the posts) they could fit nicely.

Other solutions would be simple textured background with a few motifs, I really like the idea of expanding the texture of each forum (ie, for this one, if you look around your post you can see wood), and make it a bit darker / blurry. This would imply minimal work and I think it could look pretty nice, since a lot of forums already have a different texture (leather, stones, etc). Zach also talked about adding moss or other details to it so I really like it.

I also love the idea of having a team dedicated to it.

I completely understand this would take away the immersion a bit, but I cannot bring myself to consider AI. 400 images? I read what Zach said about the environmental cost, but there is so many other factors that enter this discussion (human exploitation, and creativity?).

While I know it can seem like unrealistic goals or empty promises, we have several artists who offered to help fill this void, and I understand this implies a whole bunch of other questions, but I do think if we seriously consider this possibility we can make it work.

I have already stated my opinion on AI and why I am against it here, so please go take a peek, I will just copy paste the main parts below.

AI has consequences on the domains below :

— human exploitation
Yes! AI companies employ underpaid workers to perform repetetive tasks to improve our own usage. OpenAI (the company that owns ChatGPT) employed kenyan workers paid 2$ an hour to 'moderate', make GPT less toxic, meaning they had humans watch pictures of (tw) p-dophiles, t-rture, s-cuide all day. Linked is the article, if you wish to inform yourself further. I strongly recommend the book 'Empire of AI' by Karen Hao, the examples I'm about to cite bellow have been presented by my university on a course about AI and have been taken from her book. The example developped was the one of Mo Fatokhine, one of the kenyan employees of OpenAI. The constant exposure to violent or sexual content resulted in radical change in his behaviour, causing his wife and daughter to leave him and not come back.
Other than literal exploitation, AI steals. The art generated by AI is an industry estimated at roughly 50 billion dollars. And how do you think the data used as training is collected ? Illegally. Professional artists all around the world denounced damage to reputation, economic losses, plagiarism and copyright infrigement. Every picture you generate is built off the stolen work of professional artist, without consent or remuneration.

— environnemental exploitation
Numerous articles and scientific studies already show this but I'll repeat it : AI is disastrous for the environnement. Training LLM is roughly worth 500 New York-Paris flights, one request uses thirty times more energy than a google research. The continued growth of data centers uses electricity, and contracts are passed with fossile and nuclear industries, as the part of AI in a country's consommation is becoming bigger and bigger by the second. In Tenesse, Elon Musk built his gigantic Colossus supercomputer in Memphis, and powers it using approximately 35 unauthorized methane plants that release thousands of tons of air pollutants into these communities. In Ireland, 100% of the energy produced by green sources (wind turbine, etc) is used to fuel AI centers, making the country back to its original state. AI is distracting us from reaching our carbon goal, destroying the planets. Sure, it's not the only factor in game but it is an additional one that makes the balance weight on the opposite side.
Water, drinkable water, is used to cool down data center. Every five prompts, a whole bottle of water is being drunk by those centers. Drinkable water, while countries dies of thirst. In Urugay, Montevideo, water was contaminated by a datacenter and then drunk by the populations, causing women to miscarriage (cf. Hao's book).

Of course countless of other fiels like education (AI is making us dumber, studies have shown a drop in overall IQs), justice (AI is reproducting patterns of our world, causing for example POC to appear more likely to recidive than others, which is a problem as they're being used in justice), etc.

I stand by my statement — AI is bad. While yes, it has the potential of helping us greatly, nowdays the consequences outweights the results, and I do not know about you but I care about my planet, and my people.

In that post I also explain why AI in writing makes absolutely zero sense, and to me it's the exact same for art. Why on earth would we turn to machine made? Even if there were absolutely zero environmental, human, or moral consequences to AI, I would still stand against it.

Art was the very first thing we know of mankind. "Art is the signature of Man" — G. K. Chesterton. Art is one of the large difference between Man and Beast. Art was the very start of our recorded history. Why would we give it to machines? Machines that only try to mimick what we can do? Art is, at the end of the day, what connects us all, a language that everyone across the globe is fluent in, no matter if they never picked up a paintbrush before.

Even more importantly if you are on this site, and reading these words. You have come here to create, then why stop? Why limit yourself to writing when learning new tools is so much fun? I wanted a map for my greenhouses, I could have asked AI to make one for me, I did not. I spent a week on Inkarnate, gained several white hairs, but at the end of the day I managed to make something that looked like what I wanted, and it was all me. I wouldn't trade this feeling for anything.

Anyhow, aside from the starry-eyed beliefs my heart possesses, I absolutely stand ready to propose my help as well in making our site pretty pretty, and as man-made as it can be.

(Posting again just to say that I personally don’t like using photographs as the background, generally because it doesn’t fit the vibe I had gotten from hio in the past and feels like a contrast to the soft, blended look I had felt like I’ve seen. I am against making a team for “illustrations” and against giving exclusive items to them for drawing. It is unfair to those of us (namely me) who lack an artistic bone in their body or isn’t as great as others on this site.)

REILITERATING BECAUSE I SAW A LATER POST >.> turning my words against me.
I do not think it is fair to give "artists" an exclusive item because they "volunteered" to draw. To be a volunteer, you aren't agreeing to compensation, you are agreeing to work for free and give up your own time. Further, to have decent art, not everyone's art will qualify. I'm a very bad artist. I can't even draw a head or a hand. That said, I wouldn't volunteer because I do not want to face the shame that my art sucks. Further, I also would lose out on any exclusive gifts or items because I couldn't draw. That said, that is why I said it's unfair. It's not me being selfish, it's me being considerate of those who will miss out on exclusive items.