I do think there were moments where the discussion crossed from expressing an opinion into implying that those who reached a different conclusion were somehow acting immorally. I'm an adult. I understand the ethical concerns surrounding AI, and I don't think I'm a moral failure because, after considering those concerns, I arrived at a different conclusion. I wont rehash those claims as i already spoke to them previously.

It was frustrating seeing comments that reduced the opposing position to "people just want pretty pictures," or suggested that those supporting AI simply didn't care about artists, ethics, or the environment. That doesn't reflect the arguments many of us were actually making.

I also don't think it's constructive to tell someone who has spent years maintaining this community that they should expect members to leave if they don't make the decision others want. Whether those statements were made publicly or privately, they put enormous pressure on one individual who is trying to solve a legitimate copyright problem with limited resources.

Finally, I think it's important to distinguish between "I don't like this compromise" and "no compromise is acceptable because the images exist at all," as I reference the toggle option not being good enough for some opposed to AI. Once a position becomes "I object even if I never have to see it," it leaves very little room for finding common ground.

While you guys do not see it, this thread and the messages being sent to Zach privately, which I have seen, have effected him adversely.

Sorry to hear Zach and you were affected ! I wish you guys nothing but the best mentally and to stay healthy !

But this topic is very heavy and controversial everywhere, so it makes sense to have alot of clashing of heads in such things.

Especially if presented to be an open opinion thread, I don't think it was good then to try and reply to every single thing. That's just exhausting. I think it's best to leave it as an opinions, and what the majority is what should go.

I think alot of people feel like they're being dismissed or not being fully heard on both sides which is why it's like this, that's why I believe the poll was a better idea ! It's been mentally taxing for everyone, all members on all sides !

Wishing everyone to stay healthy and to stay healthy because that's what matters. < 3

For the record, I'm not effected. I am protecting a hard-working man who is giving his services to this site for free who has recently become engaged after years of being too busy to work a big project and he is doing great stuff. I've been in his position running events and facing drama, it can take years to regain that spark once lost. I cannot run this place without him.

I discussed working with the community and over time sourcing images that maintain the aesthetic. This wont be photos or things that are drastically different in tone than what we have had for years. But I did list concerns with community sourcing, those being when someone leaves, behaves badly, quality drops or progress stalls on the project which it inevitably will. Even with the best of efforts, it will take years to complete if it does complete at all. This is not me dismissing or failing to hear concerns, this is me being completely honest.

I have also been clear if interest and submissions wane in the project (like what happened with forum descriptions and bestiary), I'm not going to be pushing and fighting with the community for years to continue to develop it. I did that with classes already, but I am willing to support positive movement if momentum exists. It would be unfair to expect me to carry a project that is no longer being engaged. This is boundary setting.

Leaving the site blank for years is not a viable option because it is a part of our brand. The toggle is a great bridge for those who cannot face AI at all, they get the plain or textured BG. Zach already promised a BG toggle compromise.

I get this is not what people want to hear, but this is what honesty looks like and this is what compromise looks like. In a compromise neither gets everything they want. Toggle is being made. Opportunity to contribute is on the table, however AI being used in the meantime is a compromise. I don't want to have to set up polls, collect submissions and having to track a project that will take years, but will. I won nothing but I am holding the line that I'm not going to fight for the next 5 years with people to make images (boundary), so I cannot promise the forum will ever be AI-free unless there is persistent engagement (honesty) and because the site appearance is a strong part of Zach vision (honesty) so I cant just accept images with very different aesthetics just because they are "not AI". For example, someone cannot find a bunch of stock images for instance to fill the site or a low-quality image, a conversation I am already anxious about having to have because it will feel so bad for both of us (boundary).

I'm going to throw my two sense in here for the people who are against ai images for backgrounds. If we ban that, if we don't use that every single one of use are being hypocrites, because doing that would mean we should also implement that no user should use ai images for their characters pfps etc! We can't ban ai writing and ai background images then turn around and say "Oh, it's okay to use ai images for your characters etc". In my opinion that's calling the kettle black and I don't really care if any of you like my opinion or not. If you guys are so much against using ai then why aren't we implementing a no ai whatsoever rule?? That makes sense! Otherwise I feel like if we allow users to use images we should be allowed to use it as the background. If any of you reply to this please ping me so I can read it.

On top of this, I am sorry @Zach Winslow for hearing that these comments have affected you so. If you need any help whatsoever I am more than willing to chip in! This site and this community has given me so much. I have literally grown up on this site that I want to give back. Do not hesitate to reach out to me both you and Lear!

Lily Isobel McCoire wrote: Today, 03:44 I'm going to throw my two sense in here for the people who are against ai images for backgrounds. If we ban that, if we don't use that every single one of use are being hypocrites, because doing that would mean we should also implement that no user should use ai images for their characters pfps etc! We can't ban ai writing and ai background images then turn around and say "Oh, it's okay to use ai images for your characters etc". In my opinion that's calling the kettle black and I don't really care if any of you like my opinion or not. If you guys are so much against using ai then why aren't we implementing a no ai whatsoever rule?? That makes sense! Otherwise I feel like if we allow users to use images we should be allowed to use it as the background. If any of you reply to this please ping me so I can read it.

On top of this, I am sorry @Zach Winslow for hearing that these comments have affected you so. If you need any help whatsoever I am more than willing to chip in! This site and this community has given me so much. I have literally grown up on this site that I want to give back. Do not hesitate to reach out to me both you and Lear!

Exactly. This is what we're trying to get at.
Ban AI altogether.
Why aren't we implementing it, Lily???

@Winnie Athanatos
Hello! Thank you for the reply. I wasn’t trying to attack you for what you were saying, and I do understand your point. I just got a little confused at the wording of what you were saying, and took it the wrong way. My apologies.

@Solomon Lear
I think the main thing is just that, as you said, there isn’t a good, happy medium. The toggle won’t make people as happy because the ai had been used already and it would just be cosmetic to turn it off.
I do personally wish that before some ai was already used (as I think you mentioned), even if it was just for testing reception, that we could have had a poll up for maybe a day. Obviously I am not aware of how urgent these legal things are, but I think postponing the code and background making for at least 24 hours while people could input their say would be nice, on behalf of me and the others who asked for the poll before any hard descion was made. And there is a solid chance, if you at least try, even for a month, to see if the community working together could truly do it. Working on the backgrounds for the forums that have the most amount of traffic then working backwards could be helpful, and if it crashes and burns after the trial period and suddenly no one is interested? Then use the ai. People simply just want there to be a chance that we could contribute instead of using the ai, rather than have the descion be made and we don’t get one.
And please know I am saying all of this respectfully and I am aware of what I am asking and how much effort there is in this undertaking. But I genuinely do not believe it is impossible.

And I am so sorry to hear that the comments had an effect on Zach. This is, as many people have already stated, a tough issue and to be on the receiving end of horrible comments is not fair and not what this debate was supposed to be about.

Hold on, please let's not turn this whole thing into a ban ai images thread. That is not what this thread is for.

and for the record, I would be strongly against banning ai images as a rule. I do not want to go looking like a creep who is 20 years old for a child half my age to use on a site. I can't draw either, so I don't want to do that.

Please just read Lear, Zach, Winnie and Jake's posts. Please.

I know I am late to the conversation but I felt the need to share my thoughts.

Firstly, to state my position, I personally try to minimize AI use unless it is something entirely impossible to be completed without it (eg. talking to customer service some places.) However, I am also a very live-and-let-live sort of person. I think governments should heavily restrict the use of AI as to minimize ethical and environmental impacts but one person generating images for one site is not the cause of the problem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I would, however, prefer the use of non-AI images as it would result in a better quality experience of greater authenticity to the values of this community. However, the final judgement is yours to make.

I think collecting user-submitted photos is a valid solution as long as you ensure the submitting users are 18+ and that the photos don't contain anything with revealing information. (Most users don't live in castles so I doubt that would be a concern.) I have plenty of photos I have taken while traveling that reveal nothing of my identity or location and would make suitable site backgrounds. I would also be willing to have these used without any visible credit to myself if that makes it more secure.

Perhaps, instead of rushing to get all the images collected now, the black backgrounds can be replaced by human creations (either art or photo) over time. I don't think they need to all be by one artist/individual but rather would be a cool way to showcase the talent of the community via contest submissions etc.

Remy Break wrote: 46 minutes ago Hold on, please let's not turn this whole thing into a ban ai images thread. That is not what this thread is for.

and for the record, I would be strongly against banning ai images as a rule. I do not want to go looking like a creep who is 20 years old for a child half my age to use on a site. I can't draw either, so I don't want to do that.

Please just read Lear, Zach, Winnie and Jake's posts. Please.

Understood. But I do not think it is a requirement to use a child's picture for a pfp? If you can't draw a pfp, there are shops here that are willing to do that for you for a few galleons.

This is an advertisement for said shops, please pay me for exposure. /j

Aurelia Valentine wrote: 53 minutes ago

Lily Isobel McCoire wrote: Today, 03:44 I'm going to throw my two sense in here for the people who are against ai images for backgrounds. If we ban that, if we don't use that every single one of use are being hypocrites, because doing that would mean we should also implement that no user should use ai images for their characters pfps etc! We can't ban ai writing and ai background images then turn around and say "Oh, it's okay to use ai images for your characters etc". In my opinion that's calling the kettle black and I don't really care if any of you like my opinion or not. If you guys are so much against using ai then why aren't we implementing a no ai whatsoever rule?? That makes sense! Otherwise I feel like if we allow users to use images we should be allowed to use it as the background. If any of you reply to this please ping me so I can read it.

On top of this, I am sorry @Zach Winslow for hearing that these comments have affected you so. If you need any help whatsoever I am more than willing to chip in! This site and this community has given me so much. I have literally grown up on this site that I want to give back. Do not hesitate to reach out to me both you and Lear!

Exactly. This is what we're trying to get at.
Ban AI altogether.
Why aren't we implementing it, Lily???

I personally was using that to make a point. I'm definitely against banning ai images. I am with Remy on this. I have used AI images before and I like how I can create specific photo album.pictures with my characters. It's up to Zach if he wants to do that but I am not for banning it. Again I was making a point on how hypocritical we are being on this issue...

Adding on to what Dahlia said, I think you should personally start on the before login page. It's very blank and if I was new here I would not sign up for something that has no pictures whatsoever to capture my interest