AI and background images
Hello everyone,
Some of you may have noticed that the background images are currently being changed. The new ones use generative artificial intelligence, which is not an insignificant choice, and I would
like to discuss it with you.
1. Background images
Since 2017, the website has used illustrations that are not royalty free. They were created by artists for the former official Pottermore website. At the time, the Pottermore terms of use stated that its content could be reused for not for profit purposes. These terms were updated in 2019 when the website became HarryPotter.com, and such use is now explicitly prohibited. We are therefore infringing copyright law, which is particularly strict under both American and French law, and I am personally assuming the legal and moral responsibility, as well as the associated risk.
It is therefore unavoidable that the website must stop using copyrighted images as part of its design. The situation is slightly different for avatars and the images you post, since in those cases I am only responsible as a hosting provider. This means that I simply have to remove any content that is reported to me. (The issue of the website's name, which is a registered trademark, also needs to be addressed, but I suggest that we discuss it at a later date.)
For this reason, before moving on, I believe we must set aside the argument that you prefer the current images. They are going to disappear.
We therefore have three options.
This is not central to the discussion, but on a personal level I am extremely concerned about the many consequences caused by the rapid growth of AI over the past two years.
Environmental consequences, first of all, because this development is completely at odds with everything we should be doing to prevent the planet from becoming uninhabitable within the next few decades. I worked on environmental issues for several years, and these subjects are particularly important to me.
Social consequences, in many different ways. AI can generate tailored misinformation designed to manipulate public opinion and undermine democracies. It also has cognitive consequences. After phones and social networks damaged our ability to pay attention, AI is now replacing the effort involved in human reasoning whenever people learn or maintain their knowledge.
Economic consequences, since AI is likely to cause many job losses and concentrate a great deal of money and power in the hands of a few major corporations.
Our website has itself been affected by this situation. The number of connections to the website has increased almost one hundredfold because of scraping bots that use our texts to train models. Hosting the website cost less than 10 euros per month in 2018. It now costs more than 100 euros per month because computer components have become much more expensive due to the rush to build data centers.
I would first like to set aside the issue of AI generated texts. The entire purpose of this website is to allow humans to communicate with one another and to practise and enjoy writing. Mindlessly generating automated texts directly contradicts both of these fundamental purposes, so it is perfectly natural that such content should have no place here. Nobody here wants to communicate with a machine or read texts produced by a machine. Anyone who does can already use ChatGPT, which does this very well.
I believe the discussion is somewhat different when it comes to decorative images. There are several possible positions regarding whether AI should be used to create the background images.
The first is a matter of principle. The serious disadvantages associated with AI justify refusing to use it altogether.
A second approach would be to avoid the major companies. I tried generating images using a local open source AI model running directly on my graphics card, which would address many of the concerns. Unfortunately, we will probably reach the necessary level within a few years, but for now the generated images are comparable to what ChatGPT produced two years ago. The results were not good enough and would not have pleased you.
A third approach is more pragmatic. AI is already widely misused everywhere. The images generated here would not be disposable, since they would be used for several years. Their use is probably defensible when there is no other way of providing illustrations. The environmental argument could also be made against the website itself. Despite my efforts to keep it efficient, the website receives a great deal of traffic and requires a server to operate continuously. That server is located in a data center and consumes both energy and water. As a rough estimate, generating a few hundred images would probably represent no more than the equivalent of one or two weeks of hosting.
I therefore decided that the experiment was worth attempting, under two conditions. The first was that we should be able to create attractive backgrounds that preserve the spirit of the website. The second was that these images should serve a genuine purpose.
I am currently working on a new menu project that I am certain you will really enjoy. However, it only works if the locations have images. Without them, it becomes a dull list of text, just like the current menu. This greatly reduces immersion and also makes navigation more difficult, since visual memory is extremely helpful.
This menu also has the advantage of making the website's current pages considerably lighter. It cuts the size of the pages in half and reduces processing time by 30 percent.
Here is what I propose. This month, I will be able to show you the results of our work, including the new menu, the new background layout, and a small, amusing surprise. We can then open the discussion and gather your opinions based on the finished result. If the backgrounds prove too divisive, we will remove them and display either a black background or a texture instead.
I would be very happy to read your thoughts and reactions.
Some of you may have noticed that the background images are currently being changed. The new ones use generative artificial intelligence, which is not an insignificant choice, and I would
like to discuss it with you.
1. Background images
Since 2017, the website has used illustrations that are not royalty free. They were created by artists for the former official Pottermore website. At the time, the Pottermore terms of use stated that its content could be reused for not for profit purposes. These terms were updated in 2019 when the website became HarryPotter.com, and such use is now explicitly prohibited. We are therefore infringing copyright law, which is particularly strict under both American and French law, and I am personally assuming the legal and moral responsibility, as well as the associated risk.
It is therefore unavoidable that the website must stop using copyrighted images as part of its design. The situation is slightly different for avatars and the images you post, since in those cases I am only responsible as a hosting provider. This means that I simply have to remove any content that is reported to me. (The issue of the website's name, which is a registered trademark, also needs to be addressed, but I suggest that we discuss it at a later date.)
For this reason, before moving on, I believe we must set aside the argument that you prefer the current images. They are going to disappear.
We therefore have three options.
- The first option would be to commission these images from an artist. Apart from the fact that these situations are never entirely straightforward from a copyright perspective, even when an artist is paid, copyright itself cannot be transferred under French law. This means that using the image on the website requires the artist's continued permission. I requested an estimate for just one image for the website, and the cost would be somewhere between 300 and 1,000 euros per image. We currently have nearly 400 different forums, more than twenty separate pages outside the forums, and eight themes. The website generates no advertising or subscription revenue, and the extremely generous support provided by several of you only just covers the website's ever increasing hosting costs. Until one of you wins the lottery or inherits several tens of millions of euros with no idea how to spend them, this option is unfortunately beyond our reach.
- The second option would be to remove the backgrounds. I have given this serious consideration, and it is an option that I will implement if the majority prefers it. I find this option disappointing because I believe, and this was mentioned several times in the survey, that this is one of the website's most appreciated features. It would mean having a black background, or more likely a subtle texture. It would not make much difference on a phone, but it would certainly leave a lot of empty space on a computer screen.
- The third option would be to generate the backgrounds using generative AI, which has both advantages and disadvantages.
This is not central to the discussion, but on a personal level I am extremely concerned about the many consequences caused by the rapid growth of AI over the past two years.
Environmental consequences, first of all, because this development is completely at odds with everything we should be doing to prevent the planet from becoming uninhabitable within the next few decades. I worked on environmental issues for several years, and these subjects are particularly important to me.
Social consequences, in many different ways. AI can generate tailored misinformation designed to manipulate public opinion and undermine democracies. It also has cognitive consequences. After phones and social networks damaged our ability to pay attention, AI is now replacing the effort involved in human reasoning whenever people learn or maintain their knowledge.
Economic consequences, since AI is likely to cause many job losses and concentrate a great deal of money and power in the hands of a few major corporations.
Our website has itself been affected by this situation. The number of connections to the website has increased almost one hundredfold because of scraping bots that use our texts to train models. Hosting the website cost less than 10 euros per month in 2018. It now costs more than 100 euros per month because computer components have become much more expensive due to the rush to build data centers.
I would first like to set aside the issue of AI generated texts. The entire purpose of this website is to allow humans to communicate with one another and to practise and enjoy writing. Mindlessly generating automated texts directly contradicts both of these fundamental purposes, so it is perfectly natural that such content should have no place here. Nobody here wants to communicate with a machine or read texts produced by a machine. Anyone who does can already use ChatGPT, which does this very well.
I believe the discussion is somewhat different when it comes to decorative images. There are several possible positions regarding whether AI should be used to create the background images.
The first is a matter of principle. The serious disadvantages associated with AI justify refusing to use it altogether.
A second approach would be to avoid the major companies. I tried generating images using a local open source AI model running directly on my graphics card, which would address many of the concerns. Unfortunately, we will probably reach the necessary level within a few years, but for now the generated images are comparable to what ChatGPT produced two years ago. The results were not good enough and would not have pleased you.
A third approach is more pragmatic. AI is already widely misused everywhere. The images generated here would not be disposable, since they would be used for several years. Their use is probably defensible when there is no other way of providing illustrations. The environmental argument could also be made against the website itself. Despite my efforts to keep it efficient, the website receives a great deal of traffic and requires a server to operate continuously. That server is located in a data center and consumes both energy and water. As a rough estimate, generating a few hundred images would probably represent no more than the equivalent of one or two weeks of hosting.
I therefore decided that the experiment was worth attempting, under two conditions. The first was that we should be able to create attractive backgrounds that preserve the spirit of the website. The second was that these images should serve a genuine purpose.
I am currently working on a new menu project that I am certain you will really enjoy. However, it only works if the locations have images. Without them, it becomes a dull list of text, just like the current menu. This greatly reduces immersion and also makes navigation more difficult, since visual memory is extremely helpful.
This menu also has the advantage of making the website's current pages considerably lighter. It cuts the size of the pages in half and reduces processing time by 30 percent.
Here is what I propose. This month, I will be able to show you the results of our work, including the new menu, the new background layout, and a small, amusing surprise. We can then open the discussion and gather your opinions based on the finished result. If the backgrounds prove too divisive, we will remove them and display either a black background or a texture instead.
I would be very happy to read your thoughts and reactions.
AI and background images
Let me just say this as someone who is both frustrated with, but also okay with, the use of artificial intelligence. I am well aware this may annoy or make people mad, but if I had to be honest, this is a cheaper alternative and can be done in a snap in comparison to having to wait months for art to be made and done for each and every individual forum.
I respect the artists here, but because I would like to prevent us from having legal trouble with pottermore images and branding on our site, I would like to advocate for the use of AI art.
(this is irrelevant to the use of ai for artober/martch, and is a seperate issue. This certain advocation is for ai images as the background)
We could remove the background but, let's be real, people love the backgrounds to this site. However, without the aesthetic we were given, I fear that it would just make people lose interest. So, please, by all means, use AI as necessary. I do not care if you use this for the backgrounds.
I do not want hio to be put into legal trouble in any way, and it is important that we lose the copyrighted elements and also take into consideration our financial needs, as you said, commissioning is costly, and to expect people to volunteer their art skills, while great, isn't preferable either. They deserve to be paid for their work, but the styles might also not match at all. Plus, they may not even finish what they were doing before dropping the tasks. I don't want to put high hopes on people and instead be disappointed because they dropped the ball.
--
For the record with AI image generations, I usually use copilot and bing create. I don't really use other ai chatbox image generators. Plus I'm not a fan of textured backgrounds or solid colors. Textured backgrounds just feel boring and solid backgrounds are plenty drab.
You've gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, something something.
I respect the artists here, but because I would like to prevent us from having legal trouble with pottermore images and branding on our site, I would like to advocate for the use of AI art.
(this is irrelevant to the use of ai for artober/martch, and is a seperate issue. This certain advocation is for ai images as the background)
We could remove the background but, let's be real, people love the backgrounds to this site. However, without the aesthetic we were given, I fear that it would just make people lose interest. So, please, by all means, use AI as necessary. I do not care if you use this for the backgrounds.
I do not want hio to be put into legal trouble in any way, and it is important that we lose the copyrighted elements and also take into consideration our financial needs, as you said, commissioning is costly, and to expect people to volunteer their art skills, while great, isn't preferable either. They deserve to be paid for their work, but the styles might also not match at all. Plus, they may not even finish what they were doing before dropping the tasks. I don't want to put high hopes on people and instead be disappointed because they dropped the ball.
--
For the record with AI image generations, I usually use copilot and bing create. I don't really use other ai chatbox image generators. Plus I'm not a fan of textured backgrounds or solid colors. Textured backgrounds just feel boring and solid backgrounds are plenty drab.
You've gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, something something.
AI and background images
I agree with Elmo entirely. As an artist, I’m not a huge fan of AI taking over everything, but this is something I think is okay. Especially if it’s better for the site in the long run.
Hiring an artist is not only expensive, but would take months or even a year or more to have all new images made for all the forums. In that time, the images would probably be removed and there would be no background which I agree would cause people to lose interest.
That leaves the only option to be using AI. AI can be a great tool for things and I understand the frustration that may be expressed because this was brought up, but I ask you to look at the bigger picture beyond our personal opinions and see what may be the best option for the site. Even if we don’t agree with it.
Hiring an artist is not only expensive, but would take months or even a year or more to have all new images made for all the forums. In that time, the images would probably be removed and there would be no background which I agree would cause people to lose interest.
That leaves the only option to be using AI. AI can be a great tool for things and I understand the frustration that may be expressed because this was brought up, but I ask you to look at the bigger picture beyond our personal opinions and see what may be the best option for the site. Even if we don’t agree with it.
Be the change you wish to see |
||
in the world. |
AI and background images
I don't even wanna mention that by doing a conceptual volunteer thing... you'd need to think about, while it's a different thing, it was still all done by volunteers. It took a very long time (years!) just to finish the report card and make 37 lessons for all 7 years for all of the classes individually. I do not feel like relying on volunteers to do this in a timely manner would be best. And I really do say that with honesty and respect intended.
Like I said, you all are great artists, but getting things done in a timely manner isn't necessarily everyone's forte as they might drop the project, leave the project, or just.. leave it to someone else, and pass it on and pass it on, or never finish something you claimed just because you have no muse.
The benefit of using AI to generate images is that it can do things for us in mere minutes, even if it causes a displeasure amongst all the artists. So, commission or not, I support you doing what you have to do Zach, even if it's simply generating an image.
You've gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, something something.
Like I said, you all are great artists, but getting things done in a timely manner isn't necessarily everyone's forte as they might drop the project, leave the project, or just.. leave it to someone else, and pass it on and pass it on, or never finish something you claimed just because you have no muse.
The benefit of using AI to generate images is that it can do things for us in mere minutes, even if it causes a displeasure amongst all the artists. So, commission or not, I support you doing what you have to do Zach, even if it's simply generating an image.
You've gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, something something.
AI and background images
I personally am quite strongly against the use of AI images. As much as people like it for the immersive element I am not here just for that. I would prefer to have a blank or 'boring' background over something that has been trained by scraping art from actual artist and has a big impact on our planet. I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but just because the amount of resources it would take to make a 100 images is equal to what the site uses in one or two weeks, doesn't mean that the effect is negligible. There is still extra strain being put on our planet which in my opinion isn't necessary.
The immersion for me doesn't come from the background pictures I see when browsing site, it comes from interacting with everyone else, from writing my character and seeing how they've evolved over the course of 2.5 years.
tldr; I would prefer to keep the usage of AI to a minimum.
Thank you for your hard work though Zach, I am very interested to see how the site is going to continue to evolve!
The immersion for me doesn't come from the background pictures I see when browsing site, it comes from interacting with everyone else, from writing my character and seeing how they've evolved over the course of 2.5 years.
tldr; I would prefer to keep the usage of AI to a minimum.
Thank you for your hard work though Zach, I am very interested to see how the site is going to continue to evolve!
| sta • 8 | eva • 7 | str • 5 You will grow strong wis • 10 | arc • 7 | acc • 8 | Perf. | Wand. | Calm. pres. In the softest way ability | ability | ability |
AI and background images
I can expand on this point when I have more time later but I would rather the site have no background than use AI for generation.
I am not even singed. My wings are untouched. You use them for everything, except flight.
Liliya Starkova| Anthonie Engelbrecht
Liliya Starkova| Anthonie Engelbrecht
AI and background images
I also will expand when I have more time, but I am strongly against AI use and would prefer the site have no background than use AI-generated backgrounds.
esme hestridge. second year slytherin duelist. |
thales amaro. second year castelobruxo quidditch. |
AI and background images
First of all - thank you Zach for maintaining the site and ensuring H.io is a place for all of us to continue enjoying. We understand that things must change, and are thankful for the opportunity to voice our opinions and impact said change.
Whenever it comes to the usage of the AI backgrounds, I would prefer a blank or boring background, honestly.
AI imagery is objectively bad for many reasons that have been outlined by both Zach and other users already, and these reasons are large enough alone for me to take a stance against the AI.
On a personal and more objective note however, I do not want the overwhelming presence of AI art tainting the experience of human connection, creativity, and personal touch that makes H.io the escape it is for so many. Knowing how I and many others feel, I believe using AI imagery site wide would be a major turn off for a large number of our community. I truly believe we would lose more than a few players.
My idea: Photography
It could be a fine alternative to have folks submit photos that could be edited and adjusted and then used as site backgrounds. This could be a long and lengthy process, but would keep the human touch.
I personally would be willing to work on this as I have a camera capable of high quality photos, and a collection of witchy/magical items that I would just love to stage! (+ lovely old buildings in driving distance that fit the magic!!)
To add to the above: Universal Studios Photos
Would pictures taken at the universal studios parks be considered copyright infringement? I am not very well versed on the matter, but I’m sure some of us (me!!!) have some photos of hogsmeade, platform 9 3/4, diagon alley, the castle, etc! The sets are absolutely amazing and I can think of many many on site locations able to be photographed in the parks!
Paying for photos:
I quickly searched shutterstock and have found some images of the universal parks (and other concepts) that could be wonderful to use! I personally would love to pitch in (more than a few coins, I would truly love to be a part of this if the idea sticks) to purchase the assets if this intrigued others.
Shutter stock examples: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 - I truly think these would be awesome!
Finally: community art
I would prefer “bad” art over AI art any day. It could be a fun way to distribute some galleons and turn a sour situation sweet if we allowed the community to submit art. We could start with something simple like the common rooms and have users vote on the ones that they prefer. This is a way for everyone to give back, gain a sense of pride, and bring some individuality to the site.
Thank you for opening this up for our opinions, I hope we can come to a solution that satisfies us all!
Whenever it comes to the usage of the AI backgrounds, I would prefer a blank or boring background, honestly.
AI imagery is objectively bad for many reasons that have been outlined by both Zach and other users already, and these reasons are large enough alone for me to take a stance against the AI.
On a personal and more objective note however, I do not want the overwhelming presence of AI art tainting the experience of human connection, creativity, and personal touch that makes H.io the escape it is for so many. Knowing how I and many others feel, I believe using AI imagery site wide would be a major turn off for a large number of our community. I truly believe we would lose more than a few players.
My idea: Photography
It could be a fine alternative to have folks submit photos that could be edited and adjusted and then used as site backgrounds. This could be a long and lengthy process, but would keep the human touch.
I personally would be willing to work on this as I have a camera capable of high quality photos, and a collection of witchy/magical items that I would just love to stage! (+ lovely old buildings in driving distance that fit the magic!!)
To add to the above: Universal Studios Photos
Would pictures taken at the universal studios parks be considered copyright infringement? I am not very well versed on the matter, but I’m sure some of us (me!!!) have some photos of hogsmeade, platform 9 3/4, diagon alley, the castle, etc! The sets are absolutely amazing and I can think of many many on site locations able to be photographed in the parks!
Paying for photos:
I quickly searched shutterstock and have found some images of the universal parks (and other concepts) that could be wonderful to use! I personally would love to pitch in (more than a few coins, I would truly love to be a part of this if the idea sticks) to purchase the assets if this intrigued others.
Shutter stock examples: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 - I truly think these would be awesome!
Finally: community art
I would prefer “bad” art over AI art any day. It could be a fun way to distribute some galleons and turn a sour situation sweet if we allowed the community to submit art. We could start with something simple like the common rooms and have users vote on the ones that they prefer. This is a way for everyone to give back, gain a sense of pride, and bring some individuality to the site.
Thank you for opening this up for our opinions, I hope we can come to a solution that satisfies us all!
AI and background images
Remember: the people who contribute the least to environmental harm are often the ones who suffer the most from it.
Usage of Gen AI will continue to pollute the air and water from cities and small towns and therefore I want a part of none of it. I prefer a black background over anything AI generated.
Usage of Gen AI will continue to pollute the air and water from cities and small towns and therefore I want a part of none of it. I prefer a black background over anything AI generated.
| [ the golden girl; the harshness of such warm light ] | xxxxxx | ★ lucien alexandre de montfort |
AI and background images
Hello, Zach and HIO community! I am unsure of whether or not I will have time to revisit this, but I'll do my best to express my thoughts here quickly.
First and foremost, I am fully supportive of taking the necessary actions to direct our site out of the way of legal repercussions under copyright laws. I love this site and the existence of our community as a safe space for us creative writers, so legal compliance is something I support without a doubt!
However, as Zach had mentioned above, there are many repercussions to using generative AI models for replacing the backgrounds that will be removed, and I believe this is a concern for many users (admittedly, including myself because of my personal beliefs). I personally agree with Mylo that the immersive aspect, first and foremost, comes from our community and its work, and background images play a less significant role in my experience. That being said, I would be sad to see this disrupt the efforts and progress made on projects/updates such as the menu project.
I would love to work with and support players who can come up with alternatives to using generative AI while still keeping some degree of attractive background design, but I understand such projects may be unsustainable and difficult to get off the planning table.
To @Adeline Spinks: I would love to discuss more on the possibility of IRL photography to replace the backgrounds!! However, would it potentially endanger you if you took photos of your hometown ;;? I am supportive, but naturally, safety comes first
First and foremost, I am fully supportive of taking the necessary actions to direct our site out of the way of legal repercussions under copyright laws. I love this site and the existence of our community as a safe space for us creative writers, so legal compliance is something I support without a doubt!
However, as Zach had mentioned above, there are many repercussions to using generative AI models for replacing the backgrounds that will be removed, and I believe this is a concern for many users (admittedly, including myself because of my personal beliefs). I personally agree with Mylo that the immersive aspect, first and foremost, comes from our community and its work, and background images play a less significant role in my experience. That being said, I would be sad to see this disrupt the efforts and progress made on projects/updates such as the menu project.
I would love to work with and support players who can come up with alternatives to using generative AI while still keeping some degree of attractive background design, but I understand such projects may be unsustainable and difficult to get off the planning table.
To @Adeline Spinks: I would love to discuss more on the possibility of IRL photography to replace the backgrounds!! However, would it potentially endanger you if you took photos of your hometown ;;? I am supportive, but naturally, safety comes first
Thank you again for your work and efforts to protect our site, Zach!TLDR: While I prefer the first option of not using generative AI based on personal values, BUT in the event that the majority of the community decides on the use of generative AI for backgrounds, could we please learn more about how the second approach differs from the third approach in terms of addressing our AI concerns?